Maundy Thursday 2014

Re: It’s Time for a Schism Regarding Women in the Church; or rather, Is it time for a schism in the Church (i.e. the LCA)?

Some comments on Katie and Martin’s Blog on the Lutheran Church in Australia.

Firstly the LCA is not THE Church, the Church is where Saints and Sinners Worship God, in all Three Persons, and love God and follow His commandments to the best of their ability. Church is NOT where attendants choose to do what is right in their own eyes and ride – or are allowed to ride – roughshod over the Commandments of Jesus Christ.

Page 2
The time has come …
Dot point 1; NO, that means that those in the LCA who are for Women’s Ordination (WO from here on) need to reassess their adherence to Article II of our Constitution, if they cannot comply, then they need to select a denomination or sect where women may preach, contrary to 1 Cor. 14 33-38, and 1 Tim. 2 & 3. The Lutheran more than anyone else needs to obey God’s Word first and foremost.
Dot point 2; YES, if that ministry includes public preaching in Church. NO, if that ministry comprises chaplaincy to the sick, the shut-ins, or those in prison or other institution.
Dot point 3; Too ridiculous for words. This is directly against the teaching that Women were created to be a help suitable for Men (Genesis 2:20b-24), not lower, not higher, but equal with different vocations.
Dot point 4; Depends, if the speaker (gender inclusive) is a proponent of actions that contravene the Word of God then the Speaker should be ignored, vide 1 Cor. 14:38.

It was settled twice in National synods that women could NOT be ordained, c.f. 1 Tim 3.

There is a critical difference in women’s vocations, in the secular sphere women can be carpenters, or butchers and men can be nurses or midwives. But in Church we are bound by the Word of God as to what vocation is open to us; a woman cannot be a husband, nor a man be a wife.

Comments to the Blog.

RE: Janine 2013-11-25 (24?) 6:17 pm?
“Rights must be taken?” Is it a “right” that women may preach where capable men are available? Can you take what is NOT yours? It is out of context to say that women are oppressed in the case of Ordination, our Lord Jesus Christ never appointed a woman as an Apostle, nor is there any biblical and historical evidence that any of the 70 (72) who were sent were of the female gender, Christ Jesus showed us a very clear example. As for; “we should allow the new Bishop one Synod”, this is not only rude but also gives away that those in favour of WO only seek power over the LCA.

RE: Margaret 2013-11-25 11:40 am
There is no need to wait for WO, it is against the Word of God, it has been twice defeated in Synod AND it cannot be supported by those who maintain loyalty to the Doctrines of the Lutheran interpretation of the Christian faith.

RE: Karin 2013-11-25 11:11 pm
Leaving the LCA by those who cannot (or will not) subscribe to Article II of our constitution and the Articles of Union, will only purify the praxis and the outreach of the faith of our forebears. The remains of the true Lutherans may be small but they still stand for the Word of God as written and not as it is spoken of in aid of a different agenda.

Re Janine 2013-11-26 See my note on church above.

RE: Karin 2013-11-26 12:46 am
I agree that we must follow Jesus’ call as a first priority, this is best done according to His will and His commandments (1 John 2:3,4). It is debatable that those who leave the LCA are true followers of Christ Jesus in the sense of Matthew 7:21-23. To follow Christ Jesus, we must study His teachings and consequent commandments. Remember the hymn; “Love and Obey, for there is no other way.”, surely you do!

RE: Katie and Martin 2014-4-3 7:13 pm
Dear K&M, if you cannot believe the teachings of the Lutheran interpretation of the Christian Faith, then what is your purpose to stay in the LCA whilst there are other denominations that more readily represent your agenda? There are many denominations that accept women as preachers, e.g. the Anglican Church and in the extreme the Salvation Army where the spouse of the preacher has the same rank in their fellowship. Some Synods have now appointed female Bishops, how do you compare that with the Apostolic instruction that both Overseers and Deacons are to be a HUSBAND of one wife, can a woman ever be a husband? Even among those who give themselves over to unnatural practices, in M2M and F2F domestic relationships both males call their partner “Husband” and both females call their partners “Wife”, i.e. same gender title in a same gender relationship.
You suggest that it would be “churlish” for you to suggest that true Lutherans join another church, this very thing has happened in Northern Europe, where qualified male candidates for ordinations failed to be ordained for the very reason that they stuck to the Holy Bible c.f. 1 Tim. 2:12. Their “fault” was to stick to the written Word of God.
I do not see how you can call: “Join a church that matches your belief, do NOT attempt to change a church so it matches your belief.” ‘a shaky policy’. There are sufficient denominations and sects that accommodate the belief that one can go against the Word of God either in doctrine or in practice. It is better policy for a denomination such as the Lutheran Church – in this case the LCA as a Synod – to stick to the Word of God and NOT to disobey our Lord Jesus Christ.

Remember the reason for the Season, John 3:16
One cannot live a Christian life by disobeying Christ Jesus!

Barney


Barney:

Great grand daughters no 2

Originally posted on Exethento:

The above is my nickname since the late 60′s.
My real name is Christian Peter John Bahnerth, 1934 vintage.
I am a Confessional Lutheran who takes the Word of God very seriously.
My wife (since 1961) and I have: 3 daughters 1 writer, 1 manager and 1 carpenter; 4 grand-daughters 2 practical(working) and 2 brainy( 1 Uni, 1 High School); and sofar, 1 great-grand-daughter (1 lovable).
We believe in gender equality before God and recognise the difference in vocation for both genders, we recognise the difference in design of both genders with the main difference being above the neck. Not just the growth of facial hair but the difference in neural connection between the brain halves, making the tender gender more multiskilled and the other gender more one-track minded. My dear wife is the practical person in the marriage, my greatest supporter and the household leader, and I am more the studious…

View original 74 more words


Watchman, what of the night?
Dear friends,

I believe that we as fellow Christians,take little notice of our Lord’s teaching in obedience, even unto death. Those who practice disobedience to God’s Word are multiplying like rabbits and even among the clergy there is the taint of the self-will of “I know better”.
The deceptions of the Women’s Ordination [WO] supporters and the statements on their blogs have gone on for some time. As with all lies, if one repeats an untruth long enough people may believe it to be the truth. Only Christ Jesus is the Truth, the Way and the Life.
However, the un-biblical statements/claims of the WO faction are based on their conception that their writings are Lutheran; do not be deceived they are not Lutheran! I even doubt that their writings are even fully Christian.
First and foremost I must remind the WO supporters, their fellow travelers in the LCA, and all who call themselves LUTHERAN that as members of the LCA we are all bound by both clauses of the un-alterable Article II of the Constitution of the Lutheran Church of Australia:
1. The Church accepts without reservation the Holy Scriptures of the Old and the New Testaments, as a whole and in all their parts, as the divinely inspired, written and inerrant Word of God, and as the only infallible source and norm for all matters of faith, doctrine and life.
2. The Church acknowledges and accepts as true expositions of the Word of God and as its own confession all the Symbolical Books of the Evangelical Lutheran Church contained in the Book of Concord of 1580, namely … and the Formula of Concord.

This is NOT repeatedly taught; nor taught often enough, in our Parishes/Congregations, and as a result of this, many may be unaware of the obligations involved in the membership of a Congregation or Parish of the Lutheran Church. Leading Lutherans have a duty here to proclaim our Lutheran identity through this and teach the Book of Concord to the laity, whether in the pulpit, or in time and in season, [a good layman’s ministry]. Some of our current problems – same as in Dr. Martin Luther’s time – are caused by either ignorance or unwillingness to submit to the Word of God. We as Confessional Lutherans [ordained and lay alike] can address ignorance by teaching the pure Word of God and our Word based doctrine; unwillingness remains just that, unwillingness to submit to the Word of God will only respond to prayer.
All the Lutheran Pastors and some of the lay people (like some Chaplains) have made the statement [promise] that they will adhere to the Constitution of the Australian Lutheran Church, in particular the two sub-clauses above, and ALL of them [both groups above] should be held to their promises or be de-authorised to act as a Pastor, Chaplain, or any other office in the LCA; and be prevented to continue in their role until repention and correction.
The teachings of the Lutheran expression of Christianity have been adulterated by those who replace our Bible based doctrines and dogmas by secular practices, and use standards that only have a place in the secular world; i.e. work place rules on gender equality, equal pay for equal work and the hours one must work for a nominated pay.
Some Lutheran Bishops/Pastors now tolerate or encourage the teaching of Alpha [of Anglican origin] instead of Martin Luther’s Catechism(s). Some have even gone so far as to introduce the theology of another denomination [e.g. “40 days of purpose” by the USA Baptist Pastor Rick Warren], either straight out or under the cloak of adjusting it to our practices/doctrine; a claim to the latter was made some years ago by a Lutheran Pastor, who was rather weak in his knowledge of and adherence to our doctrine as in the second clause of our Confession. We must no longer tolerate or accept the authority in the LCA of those who openly, willingly and knowingly fail to adhere to their ordination/installation vows before God.
Two streams have developed in the LCA;
(i) Lutherans who loyally subscribe to Article II of our Constitution in full, and
(ii) those who cannot or will not subscribe to our Confession, they must realise and confess that in fact they are no longer Lutherans and consequently should be banned from taking any part in decisions that affect the life and teachings of the LCA.
The ‘white anting’ of our Confession must stop; if it is not stopped the LCA will, slowly but surely, lose its foundational doctrinal basis. The introduction of non-Biblical practices – such as WO – is one part of the rot that has crept into the LCA, it goes directly against a commandment from our Lord and against the Apostolic instructions that women are not to speak in the Church. It is like gangrene, the longer it is tolerated, the more damage it does, and consequently the more surgery is required to save the patient. In my opinion, this gangrene has already been tolerated far too long, has advanced too far; and hence, drastic surgery is essential for the life of the patient, in this case the LCA. I look forward to our College of Bishops to initiate the surgery to remove that which is NOT Lutheran. I pray for their intestinal fortitude to bite the bullet and remove the rot; we might end up with a smaller LCA, but it will be more true to God’s Word and its roots in the LCA. True adherents to Lutheran Doctrine will always understand and comply with Article II, others have no place in any position of authority in the LCA, be that a Bishop, a Pastor, a Chaplain or any lay person in a position of authority. It is time we act on that! If we do not act now, we cease to be the Lutheran Church of Australia, instead becoming the Liberal Church of Australia!
I look forward to a display of adherence to the Lutheran principle by our College of Bishops to the implications of adhering to Article II of our Constitution; Yes, gentlemen, both sub-clauses!
Barney
Christian P.J. Bahnerth
GradDipMaintEng., GradCertMgmt.,
GradDipTh., MTh., PhD.

Lay Chaplain.

Author of “Order in the House” and “Service in the Household of God”. Published on the CLAi website. And “Public Office in the Household of God.” a development of the former two after further theological studies leading to his PhD in Biblical Studies.


Has the Christian faith become corrupted?

Do we still celebrate Holy Communion as Christ Jesus established?

  • Real presence of Christ in the elements?
  • Bread and wine as His body and blood?
  • Real faith in the forgiveness of sins?

If you have any comments on this, please comment so that we can take the conversation further.

Barney


Reply to Amos (2012-07-22)

 

Amos,

 

I regret the delay in responding to you but we have been away for over a month.

 

Earlier, in 1 Corinthians 14:33-38, St. Paul begins his teachings on the management of order in the Congregations of the Saints.  St. Paul follows this up by more specific instructions in the Pastoral letters, which have taken much of our time and focus.

I have used 1 Timothy 2&3 in most of my replies as they go a little further in detail.  Taking all the Divinely inspired Selection Criteria, we find that God is very selective in who may serve HIM as HIS Minister in the Office of administering the Word and the Sacraments; according to HIS will, not according to any secular or personal agenda.  St. Paul is clearly inspired to stepwise define those who may speak and those who may NOT speak during worship – that is speak/preach, not pray or sing – c.f. 1 Corinthians 14:34. “the things I write unto you are the commandments from the Lord” v 37, the ‘things’ St. Paul refers to here are vv 34-38; and 1 Timothy 2:11 “how one ought to behave him/herself in the household of God.” v 3:15; referring here to Ch 2 & 3.  First, St. Paul defines which gender may speak/preach, then he proceeds to lay down rules of conduct for those who may speak/preach; the women are not disenfrachised by this, their great Vocation can not be copied by males: from conception to childhood, the Mother is still the best person to care for the child – by Divine Design!

I cannot agree with you that I give the males a ‘free ride’; I did not write St. Paul’s Epistles, the Divine Criteria are strict enough in the texts focused on, and elsewhere in the Holy Bible to weed out undesireable males, c.f. also 1 Corinthians 5:11 and Ephesians 5:2-6, I merely try to comply with them.  Rather, women – unless they choose to ‘outsource’ the care of the child(ren) – get a free period of influence on the impressionable children in the first dozen years of their life; where the father/husband/male consort is busy ensuring a lasting source of income for his family.

Please note that I have never stated that women cannot teach other women and children (I fully support the concept that they should indeed teach where capable males are not available/willing), for a child is best taught at her mother’s lap.  The Epistle to Titus (2: 3-5) clearly teaches us first what the elder women ought to do, and then teaches us the tasks applicable to the younger women; this does not resonate with the critical tasks laid upon men who are called into the Ministry.

After your quote of 1 Thessalonians 5:12, I would have expected the completion of the sentence which runs over into verse 13 “and to esteem them very highly in love for their works sake.”  I do not see that vv 12-13 are an authorisation to investigate a Pastor with many years service unless he misrepresents the teachings of the Holy Bible or commits actions unbecoming of his Office.  Compare the Bereans on this in Acts 17:11.  I believe that Parishes/Congregations have the option to assess the suitability of a candidate for a Call to serve in their Parish; for a ‘young people Parish’ has different requirements than a Parish with mainly people who are in the second half of their life.

Many Parishes set aside a group of trusted Parishioners – as a Call Committee – during the Call process just to do that.  I have – in younger years – been a consultant to such a Committee and later a member of such a Committee.  I can assure you that God’s Word and the adherence to it were the main criteria for the selection of the ordained candidate.

In the history of the Christian Church many have been appointed to the office of Bishop/Pastor, Deacon/Elder or any other leading role without complying with ALL the criteria in e.g. 1 Timothy 2 and 3; however, history has shown that, where the Word of God is not adhered to, HIS blessings are slow to follow. 

I hazard a guess that you would be likely to agree with me that many false teachers have inserted themselves in the Christian Church, I pray to God that neither of us will be found among these heretics.  I am reminded here of Matthew 7:21-23.  There is no future for those who choose to go their way instead of HIS Way!

With reference to your last part of the email: I have had and still have the courage to tell my Pastor where and when I did/do not agree with his interpretation of the Word of GOD.  The earliest instance caused me to be outed from the leadership of a Congregation due to my opposition to foreign doctrine; the latest case has not gone that far yet but is in danger of the same thing.  So, please do not say that I do not have the courage to point out errors to the ordained leaders of my denomination; where rightly or wrongly their interpretation of the Word varies from mine, even the National President of my Denomination receives my comments where I do not agree with him: he knows this and can also expect this in the future.  I believe that all Christian religious matters need to be resolved by Scriptural guidelines only and not by secular conveniences to satisfy someone’s agenda; the SOLA SCRIPTURA principle.  Some of today’s ordained clergy can (sadly) only be seen as paid employees of the Church rather than as servants of the Most High; as a result of that, they bow to their employer’s rules even when these rules do not resonate with the Word of God, they follow policy rather than the Word of God.

In the end I must mention Matthew 7:21-27: 21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.

26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”

 

Finally when we pray the Lord’s Prayer we ask clearly for God’s will to be done on earth and in heaven, IMHO it is NOT God’s will to go against HIS commandments!  Liked or not, 1 Corinthians 14:33-38 is a commandment of God which we ignore to our own destruction.

 

 

 


A reply to “Amos Love says: 2012/07/17 at 07:01”

I wrote earlier “reply in progress …” 2012/05/01.

At that time I was coming out of a time of enforced inactivity and I was in the process of trying to ‘catch up’ on my many writing tasks.  That period of inactivity and the very slow return to ‘normal’ was unplanned and unavoidable on my part.

Just for a little detail, I am a Baptised Christian, in my early years influenced by the Roman Catholic denomination, as were many early Lutheran writers, then through my contacts with Protestants of the Calvinistic variety, I was considered for ordination.  However, I could not see that their doctrine resonated closely with the Word of God; in Holy Communion etc.  Due to Lutheran Pastors of increasing Confessional opinion, my wife and I became Lutherans.  Further training at the Charles Sturt University’s School of Theology – which has a majority of Anglican [Episcopalian] students – I learned a lot more about Christian Doctrine and the ways people employ to sidestep the Word of God.  Further studies have since made me very wary of those who treat the Word of God lightly, and have their own agenda to suit a particular view on HIS Word.  As a Christian I am involved in the Lutheran Church of Australia, as an appointed and installed Pastor’s Aide and as a lay Hospital Chaplain, I have been a Chaplain for many years, including as Chaplain – now Emeritus – for the Southern half of NSW AU for the Royal Australian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers Assoc. Inc whose membership contains many returned and long serving soldiers, many who suffer from Post Trauma Stress Disorder in which I am experienced in ministering to.

Now to start answering your questions:

Re BUT DO NOT … The word “Pastor” is Latin for Shepherd, and the first mortal ‘spiritual Shepherd/Pastor’ was St. Peter when the Risen Christ commanded Peter: “Feed my sheep!” ; c.f. John 21:15-17.

  1. Why, as a Lutheran … ?         I do not fully grasp your phrases “Why do male leaders get a free ride?  And “here are just three qualifications … “ 1 Timothy 3 lists more than 3 requirements; in addition to the ones you quoted there are;
    1. Husband of one wife, NOT spouse of one spouse, NOR partner of one partner, but specifically gender prescribed “Husband of one wife”.  A requirement that is repeated in Titus 1:6.
    2. Able to teach, this implies knowledge of the Word of God and the ability to expound it; the ability to expound requires that the teacher must be a learned person, either by formal religious education, by serious and concentrated self study or a by combination of both.  Now this is not to mean or imply that females cannot learn the Word of God, they can and indeed must; but it does take into account the limitations that apply to those who are able to teach.  After all, females are to teach other females and children, a child learns best in her mother’s lap.
    3. Take care of the Church of God … .  This involves the spiritual care of all under his Episcopacy, under his duty of caring for the souls.  Pastors nowadays are overly involved with the secular running of a Parish, for this they have resources such as Elders, Deacons and other helpers “who serve at tables”.  But their first call is to be the spiritual leader of the Parish.  Others can take care of administration and maintenance.
    4. Not a novice. … This has in cases proven to be to the detriment of Christianity when inexperienced ‘soul carers’ were given too much authority.
    5. Now let us come to the three ‘requirements’ you have isolated from the others; i.e. Blameless, Just and Holy.  Reading 1 Timothy 3:1-7 again, only the first of them appears as a qualification; hence, I will not address the two you introduced.
      1. Verses 6-7 as you quoted agree with Holy Scripture, your quote of verse 8 is questionable.
      2. So let us see what the Lutheran Study Bible says about this: “Therefore an overseer must be above reproach” i.e. “not able to be taken hold of” v2.  The footnotes in this – LC-MS accepted – Lutheran Study Bible have quite a bit to say about this and are too long to repeat here.
      3. “If a Pastor/Leader/Elder/Overseer does NOT meet the [‘tough’] Criteria … “  You write “should they not be honest, and remove themselves?”  This is a problem in many denominations and even in some Lutheran Synods.  If a Pastor promotes any practices that are diametrically opposed the Word of God, then IMHO he should be given the opportunity to repent, and if he does not mend his ways he should be encouraged to join a denomination that resonates with his ideas or if he remains stubborn be defrocked.  This sounds terse and rough, but the Christian Faith has suffered enough under false teachers.
      4. “Are you a “Leader?” An Elder? … I am a layman, an appointed and installed Pastor’s Aide and a lay Hospital Chaplain, I have been a Chaplain for many years, including as Chaplain – now Emeritus – for the Southern half of NSW AU [an area of 440,722 Km2 or 156,264 square miles] for the Royal Australian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers NSW Assoc. Inc. whose membership contains many returned and long serving soldiers, many of whom suffer from Post Trauma Stress Disorder (PTSD) a condition in which I am experienced in ministering to.
      5. Your last question asks “Is your Pastor 1 – Blameless, 2 – Holy, 3 – Just?”  My Pastor is a tested, trained, called and ordained servant of the Word and the Sacraments, he manages his household well, he is not a recent convert, and he is loved by our Parish.  Above all, him being a Christian as I am, he loves God and our Lord Jesus Christ!  However, he is not perfect, nor am I; who is perfect, are you?

In HIS love and service

Barney


Is God male?

A recent blog [K&M 2012-05-16] on this started with:

Tell a girl she CAN’T have it…

Ohhhhh… Watch how she gets it

This was accompanied by a picture of a scantily clad woman [Superwoman complete with rope]

Notice how it says: “Watch how she gets it!”  Now watch the picture that came with it.

Does a woman really have to get down to bra and panties to get what she wants?

What an example!

Well, obviously, I do not have a blind spot as some blogger has claimed, one can clearly see that the female sexual attractiveness is used to help her get it!

I replied to that blog [K&M 2012-05-17]: “Tell a girl that she cannot be a father, a brother, an uncle etc … “  But then again, I cannot be a mother, a sister, an aunt, a nun, or a prioress.

It is not our personal/individual choice at birth [or rather at conception] as to what gender we are blessed with; on the basis of chromosomes the human father has a significant influence at conception.

Then the K&M blog continues [on 2012-05-17] with my statement; “Of course God is male … , Those who deny this make God a liar.”  Please note that I did not call any participant in K&M’s blog a liar!  I stated my belief that God is male and that Christ Jesus – Who calls God FATHER – said; “I am the Way, the TRUTH, and the Life.”  God does not lie, nor does the Son of God!!!  It is outright heresy to say that any person of the Holy Trinity could be or is a liar.

Then, on 2012-05-18, M.R. Baker [MRB] joins in; firstly doubting my seriousness regarding my comments and secondly asking if I have done any exegesis lately.  The answer is; “Yes, thanks also to checking up on statements and references on K&M’s blog I have indeed; yet, I have NOT done any ‘eisegesis’, I leave that to those whose agenda is not based on the very Word of God.

MRB states later in her comment that God created mankind in two genders, she is right in that; however, can MRB not see that God had a reason for that?  Can she not read from Gen 2 that woman was created from man’s rib to be a help suitable to him?  Would God not have created mankind [anthropos] as being of one gender if male and female were to be equal/identical with identical vocations?

MRB states; “God is described as a woman in labour (Isa. 42:14)”; now let us have a look at what the Holy Scripture really says in the quoted verse:

          “I have held My peace a long time,

I have been still and restrained Myself.

Now I will cry like a woman in labor,

I will pant and gasp at once.

This does NOT say that God is a woman, it says that He cries like a woman.

Furthermore MRB states; “and as a nursing mother, loving the child to whom she has given birth … (Isa. 49:15-16); again let us have a look at what the Word really says;

15    “Can a woman forget her nursing child,

And not have compassion on the son of her womb?

Surely they may forget,

Yet I will not forget you.

16    See, I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands;

Here God is comparing Himself to a woman in compassion for her son, He says women may forget but He will NOT forget because “I have inscribed you on the palms of My hands” note God’s hands not the woman’s hands, as MRB writes!!!

C.f. And kings shall be thy nursing fathers, look it up, Isa 49:23.

Further on MRB states that I might be interested to learn that God has feet, eyes, … and a womb.  Is MRB really serious?  A male with a womb?  Do show me where the Bible states that God [the Father] has a womb.  Not as if He has a womb or like He has a womb, but that He has a womb!

The above is only a small example that MRB shows signs of feminist creativity and eisegesis to suit her agenda.  This combined with MRB’s false statement that you [the contributors to the K&M blog and/or supporters of female ordination] were liars if you called God anything but male shows further her misrepresentation of what I wrote and the deliberate bias against the Word of God.

K&M in their blog dd. 2012-05-21 say; “a legacy of an antipodean Germanic church … “  K&M do you realise that this [Lutheran] denomination in its purest form arose as a response to the errors that had crept into the church of the day [Western Christianity], it arose to combat the scourge of the claimed ability to monetarily pay for the sins of self and for those who had died some time ago, by the inventions of ‘indulgences’ and other evil errors, whilst Christ Jesus has already paid for all our sins in FULL on the cross.  The true Lutheran understanding of the Christian faith [as clearly described in the Confessions of the Evangelical Lutheran Church, i.e. The Book of Concord] provides for a basis to further understand the Word of God and is to be accepted where it agrees with the Holy Scriptures.

Further to MRB’s response [2012-05-21]

Eve KNEW that she should not eat from THAT tree, otherwise the evil one would not have said; “Did God really say … ?  She knew and made problems for her husband by offering him a bite of the proscribed fruit.  As a husband of 50+ years, I know what it is like to go along with my wife’s wishes to keep the peace, even at times when we do not agree; and I think that Adam unfortunately did the same.  Now we have the same evil words coming up again “Does God really say … ?”  E.g.  does God really say that women cannot be leading a Divine Service?  God has clearly spoken on this through His Prophets and Apostles; however, this does not suit every one’s agenda; deviations from His Word have been known for millennia with examples of the results clearly shown throughout the Holy Bible.

MRB also states that “patriarchy was a CONSEQUENCE of the fall.” I do not argue that, but MRB what was the CAUSE of the fall?  Was it not Eve’s seduction?

I will not enter into a discussion on the ramification of pornography [at this stage] which has no relation to the gender of God.

MRB comments that her elderly father is still very upset about her being disobedient to Scripture; that admission is very cathartic and it is commendable to MRB to be that open, IMHO her father is to be commended.

MRB do not be amazed that you are a female, gender is not a personal choice, serve God in ways appropriate to how He caused you to be created, serve God in ways that please Him, according to His Word – serve Him, His way not your way.

May God grant the understanding of His Word to you all.

Christian P.J. Bahnerth

GradDipMaintEng., GradCertMgmt., MACS.

GradDipTh., MTh., PhD.

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